[2] After some days, however, I saw as many as a hundred coming up out of the lower land, whither that small society sank down. They approached me, and a wise one of them said, 'Hear something wonderful. When we sank down, the place at first appeared to us like a swamp, but presently as dry land, and afterwards as a small city in which everyone had his own house, but a poor one. The next day we had a consultation among ourselves as to what was to be done. Many said that the two bishops ought to be approached and argued with gently, because they sent the paper back into the heaven out of which it was sent down, on which account this happened to us. They chose some, who went off to the bishops. (And the one speaking with me said he was one of them.) And then a certain one renowned among us for wisdom addressed the bishops thus: "Hear, O you fathers, we have believed that with us more than the rest was a Church that deserved to be called the foremost in Christendom, and a religion that deserved to be called great; but enlightenment has been given us out of heaven, and in the enlightenment a perception that at this day in Christendom the Church no longer exists, neither does religion." [3] The bishops said, "What are you saying? Does not the Church exist where the Word is, where Christ the Saviour is known, and where the sacraments are?" To these words our spokesman replied, "Those things are the Church, and they make the Church, but they do not make it outside of man, but within man." And he said further, "WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH: Can the Church exist where three Gods are worshipped? Can the Church exist where the whole of its doctrine is founded on a single saying of Paul falsely understood, and consequently not on the Word? Can the Church exist while the Saviour of the world is not approached, and where He is divided into two? WITH REGARD TO RELIGION: Who is able to deny that religion is to flee from evil and do good? Is there any religion where it is taught that faith alone saves and not charity? Is there a religion where it is taught that the charity proceeding from man is nothing but moral and civil charity? Who does not see that there is no religion in that charity? Is there in faith alone anything of deed or work? And yet religion consists in doing. Is there throughout the entire world a nation with whom there is a religion that excludes all saving virtue from the goods of charity, which are good works, when yet everything of religion consists in good, and everything of the Church in a doctrine that will teach truths, and good by means of the truths? See, O fathers, what glory we would have if the Church that does not exist, and the religion that does not exist, should begin and arise with us," [4] Then those bishops replied, "You are speaking too loftily. Is not faith in act, which is a fully justifying and saving faith, the Church? And is not faith in state, which is faith proceeding and perfecting, religion? Realise this, my sons." But the wise Englishman then said, "Hear, O fathers, does not a man conceive faith in act like a stock? Is the Church, according to your idea, then brought to life in the stock? Is not faith in state the continuation and progression of faith in act? And since according to your idea every saving virtue is in faith, and not any in the good of charity from man, where then is religion? The bishops then said, "Friend, you are speaking in this way because you do not know the mysteries of justification by faith alone, and he who does not know them does not know the way of salvation from within. Your way is the external and plebeian way. Go it if you will, but know only that all good is from God, and nothing from man, and that thus in spiritual things a man can do nothing at all from himself. How then can a man do the good that is spiritual good, from himself?" [5] Indignant at these words, the Englishman speaking with them said," I know your mysteries of justification better than you do, and I tell you plainly that in your interior mysteries I have seen nothing but spectres. Is it not religion to acknowledge and love God, and to flee from the devil and hate him? Is not God Good itself, and the devil evil itself? In the whole wide world who that has religion does not know this? Is it not doing good to acknowledge and love God, because this is of and from God? And is it not a matter of not doing evil to flee from the devil and hate him, because evil is of and from the devil? Your faith in act, which you call a fully justifying and saving faith, or, what is the same, your act of justification through faith alone, does it teach the doing of any good that is of God and from God, and does it teach a fleeing from any evil that is of and from the devil? Not in the least, because you have stipulated that there is nothing of salvation in either. What is your faith in state, which you have called a proceeding and perfecting faith, if it is not the same as faith in act? How can this be perfected, when you exclude all good [done] by man as if from himself saying, 'How can a man be saved by any good from himself, when salvation is gratuitous?' Also, 'What is the good from man if not merit-seeking? and yet Christ's merit is all; and therefore to do good for the sake of salvation would be to attribute to oneself what is Christ's alone, and thus it would be also to will to justify and save oneself.' Also, 'How can any one operate good when the Holy Spirit operates all things without any help from man? What then is the need for accessory good from man, when all good from man in itself is not good?' [6] Besides more. Are not these your mysteries? But in my eyes those things are simply subtleties and sly tricks made up for the purpose of removing good works, which are the goods of charity, so as to establish your faith alone. And because you do this, you regard man as to those things, and in general as to all the spiritual things that are of the Church and religion, as a stock or inanimate effigy, and not as a man created after the image of God, to whom has been and continually is given the faculty of understanding and willing, of believing and loving, and of speaking and doing, altogether as if from himself, especially in spiritual things, because man is a man by virtue of these. If man in spiritual things did not think and behave as if from himself, what then would faith be? and charity? and worship? Indeed what then would the Church and religion be? You know that doing good to the neighbour out of love is charity. But you do not know what charity is, when yet charity is the soul, life and essence of faith. And because charity is all of these, what then is a faith removed from charity, if not dead? And a dead faith is nothing but a spectre. I call it a spectre, because the apostle James calls faith without works not only dead but also diabolical." [7] Then one of the two bishops, when he heard his faith called dead, diabolical and a spectre, became so enraged that he snatched the mitre off his head and threw it on a table, saying, "I will not take it up again until I have been avenged on the enemies of the faith of our Church." And he shook his head muttering and saying, "That James, that James!" Upon the mitre there was a metal plate on which was engraved FAITH ALONE. And suddenly a monster then appeared rising out of the earth with seven heads, having feet like a bear's, and a mouth like a lion's, altogether like the beast that is described (Rev. xiii 1, 2) of whom an image was made and adored (vers. 14, 15 in the same chapter). This spectre took the mitre down off the table, and stretched it out below, and put it upon his seven heads. When this was done, the earth was opening under his feet, and he sank down into hell. Having seen this, that bishop cried out, "Violence! violence!" Then we left them, and behold! there were steps before our eyes, by which we came up and returned above ground and into the sight of heaven, where we had been before.' The wise Englishman told me these things.