74. Now let us turn to experience. That angels are human forms or men has been seen by me a thousand times. I have talked with them as man with man, sometimes with one, sometimes with several together, and I have seen nothing whatever in their form different from that of man. Sometimes I have marvelled at their being such. Lest this might be said to be a delusion or a vision of fancy, I have been permitted to see them when I was fully awake, in possession of all my bodily senses, and in a state of clear perception. Indeed, I have quite often told them that men in the Christian world are in such blind ignorance about angels and spirits as to believe them to be minds without form, even pure thoughts, of which they have no idea except as something ethereal in which there is some vitality. Because they thus ascribe to them nothing human except a thinking faculty, they believe that, having no eyes they see not, having no ears they hear not, and having no mouth or tongue they speak not. [2] To this the angels replied that they are aware that such a belief is held by many in the world, and is prevalent among the learned and also, to their amazement, among the clergy. The reason, they said, is that the learned who were the leaders and first propounded such an idea about angels and spirits, thought about them from the sense impressions of the external man, and that men who think from those, and not from interior light and the general idea implanted in everyone, can do no other than invent such notions, since the sense impressions of the external man take in only what belongs to nature, and nothing above nature, thus nothing whatever of the spiritual world.# From these leaders as guides, this falsity of thought about angels extended to others who did not think from themselves but from the thoughts of their leaders. Those who first form their thoughts from others, make that thought their belief, and afterwards view it with their understanding, cannot easily recede from it and so, for the most part, acquiesce in confirmation of it. [3] The angels said, furthermore, that the simple in faith and heart do not have this idea about angels but have an idea of them as men of heaven, for the reason that they have not extinguished, by erudition, what is implanted in them from heaven, neither do they apprehend anything without a form. For a like reason, angels in churches, whether sculptured or painted, are always depicted as men. In respect of what is implanted from heaven they said that it is the Divine flowing into such as are in the good of faith and life. # Unless man is raised above the sensual impressions of the external man he has very little wisdom (n. 5089). The wise man thinks above these sensual impressions (n. 5089, 5094). When man is raised above these, he comes into clearer light, and finally into heavenly light (n. 6183, 6313, 6315, 9407, 9730, 9922). Elevation and withdrawal from these was known to the ancients (n. 6313).