5111. 'And said to him' means revelation resulting from perception. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perception, dealt with in 1791, 1815, 1819, 1822, 1898, 1919, 2080, 2619, 2862, 3395, 3509, and so as revelation too, since revelation is internal perception and is the result of that perception.