4785. [4819] When, at length, he had advanced, a little to the front, [in those dark places], there then appeared an obscure light, so that he was able to see a little; and then he came to the profaners of holiness, those, to wit, who in externals demeaned themselves holily for the sake of seducing, but, inwardly, thought profanely about holy things - in all of whom, holy and profane things were conjoined. These appeared to him like skeletons; and from thence was wafted a cadaverous exhalation. One had a little wheel-pulley about a cylinder; and he said that he would cast it into the hearts of certain ones, and that, then, they no longer know anything, but sink down as dead, and that they [the profaners] then plunder them. [4820] There were those there, also, who, from evil, say, for the following reason, that they are profane, and thence holy: for, if only they were able to [sincerely] avow their profanities, they would thus be freed from them. [4821] From these he went farther to the front, and then to those who are skilled in leading others into the despairing thought, namely, that no one can ever be saved, but that all become condemned like them. They also infused this despair with some, in order that I might know of what quality it was. They came into the anxiety of desperation.