5251. 'And Pharaoh said to Joseph' means a perception expressed by the natural but belonging to the celestial of the spiritual. This is clear from the meaning of 'saying' in the historical narratives of the Word as perceiving, often dealt with already; from the representation of 'Pharaoh' as the natural, dealt with in 5079, 5080, 5095, 5160; and from the representation of 'Joseph' as the celestial of the spiritual, dealt with in 4286, 4592, 4594, 4963, 5086, 5087, 5106, 5249. The reason why a perception expressed by the natural but belonging to the celestial of the spiritual is meant is that the Lord is represented by both 'Joseph' and 'Pharaoh'. 'Joseph' represents His celestial of the spiritual and 'Pharaoh' His natural, and therefore 'Pharaoh said to Joseph' means a perception which the Lord had, which originated in the celestial of the spiritual and was present in the natural. But nothing intelligible can be stated regarding the identity and essential nature of that perception unless some idea has been formed first of what spiritual perception and the celestial of the spiritual are, as well as some idea about the essential nature of the natural being distinct and separate from that of the spiritual. Some reference has indeed been made previously to these matters; but one needs to be reminded of them.