3057. ((((When this was done by them, twice or thrice, they came into phantasies, which they also possessed in the life of the body, that speaking with spirits is a phantasy, so that they have not believed that anyone spoke with spirits; therefore that spirits are not given; this was implied. Wherefore also, when they were in a similar state, and at the same time wished to inflict evil upon another, they were immediately snatched up to the highest place above the head, and suffered the same which they intended for another, which was to appear as if their garments were torn, [this] also to themselves. Meanwhile they were held in their)))) phantasy, which they wished to derive to others, and so draw others into punishment, with themselves, and so substitute others in their place, which is contrary to love of the neighbor; and they were held in [that] state, of deriving [of their phantasy] into others, and so of a sort of deceit, the counterfeiting of others, which they did for a long time, until there appeared to be an abatement [diminui.] The derivation into others was manifestly known by their keeping others in their mind, and so wishing to take them away with themselves; whomsoever [their] mind laid hold of they took.