4726. THAT I WAS IN THE STATE OF SPIRITS. Twice or thrice I was let into the state in which spirits are, so that I was a spirit with spirits, thus without an earthly body: and I have then been with spirits and spoken with them, have seen them, and have examined how much their life differs from the life of man. They had a similar face, similar body, even similar clothing and similar speech. I spoke with them concerning this matter, and stated that I was a man in the world and at the same time a spirit among spirits, and that they were ignorant, when they lived in the world, that there would be such a life after death. They heard, they answered, they joined in conversation; some of them have forgotten that they have been men, but still have been led to the recollection of it - for they who are there for any great time, at length forget the life in the world. They who have died in infancy do not know about it, but they are shown. I saw their habitations there, the cities and streets; I have gone about with them, I have surveyed everything, and then I have grieved that they even spoke with me. How ignorant the man of the Church is because he does not know this; and if he hears that it is so, he does not believe, for the reason, first, because he does not in heart believe in a life after death; second, because he believes that his life is the life of the body, and that there is not an interior man, by which he lives; third, furthermore, because he cannot believe that his soul after death is like a man, still less that it is a man, as to the face and the whole body.