4893. The greatest part of them were such, as, when they were in the heavens, had said, What is the truth that we ought to think? What is faith? Is it not enough to speak and think without these? In a word, they considered such things as of no value, and, consequently, they could not be improved and reformed; at last, also, they entice others to similar thinking and speaking. They are such as correspond to the worms which consume the leaves of trees in the time of spring and summer, by which means the rudiment of the fruit perishes. They also seemed to be let down as by threads, according as those worms are wont [to hang down] from trees. There was a vast crowd of such. They add that they know what it is to speak and do as they please, because they feel it; but what it is to believe and thence to think good, they do not know, nor do they hold that it could be of any consequence. They derive this from their life in the world, in that, on account of the world, they wished not to think anything about heaven, because, as they said, they do not know what it is, thus what is interior in thought and will. Wherefore, when they converse together, they speak with all boldness against the neighbor, and against God, supposing it does not matter. With certain ones who were let down thence, there spoke others; and I heard them saying that they are not aware of having been in the heavens; and that, where they had been, they saw some verdant and grassy spots and shrubs, but not gardens and paradises, nor highly ornate palaces; still less did they see the angels there have or do any otherwise than elsewhere: but the reason was told them, [namely,] that, since they are in worldly and corporeal things, they are by no means able to see such things as are with the angels these are altogether hidden form their eyes. The reason is because their interiors do not correspond. Thus it is in the spiritual world, or heaven: they see with their eyes those things which conform to, and agree with, the internal sight, and the affection of truth and good. On this account, also, such things were hidden from the ones here mentioned, and, inasmuch as they do not receive the Divine influx of good and truth, therefore neither are they able to know the pleasantness, happiness and felicity of interiors enjoyed by those angels. They do not comprehend that this is so; neither, therefore, that there is aught heavenly in the objects, as is the case with those things which are seen by the angels; still less, do they place any happiness in wisdom. This is the reason that they spoke thus.