5221. They sit at the right, that is towards the south, around a table, and deliberate concerning worship: as to how God should be worshipped in the event of His granting them the power of governing on earth in His stead, and how they should act, in case He did not grant it. Also, how they should manage so that, to the common people, it may appear that heaven is given by them: and very many other things. They do all these things to the end that they may take away from the Lord all power of saving the human race, and have the power themselves. I heard them saying to one another, when they [once] heard about the life of faith and love, that they never knew that faith and love gave them any life, either intellectual or voluntary; but that man just as much possesses each without faith and love as with. They did not at all understand, when in the world, that those things which are of faith, and thus of divine truth, constitute the spiritual intellectual life, and that those things which are of love, and thus of divine good, constitute the celestial voluntary life with man, and hence his wisdom and happiness. Such things were then a laughing-stock with them, as empty phantasies. In such wise, I heard them speaking together. They added, that they placed intellectual life in well-devising matters so as to obtain what they wish, thus in arts and wickedness. Such things they called intelligence and wisdom; and they placed the life of their love in the love of ruling over others and acquiring possession of the whole world.