10. After this the angels asked the newcomers what more they had thought from faith and still thought about the consummation of the age. They replied that it would be the destruction of the universe, both heaven and earth, since it is written that heaven and earth are to perish, and it is said that they will depart in smoke. The angels asked which heaven and which earth, those of the natural world or those of the spiritual world; for here too there are heavens and earth, heavens where the angels are and lands upon which people live. To this the newcomers replied, 'What is this! Perhaps you are joking! Are not angels spirits, and what is a spirit but a puff of wind! And where is this? Does it not fly in the atmosphere and rise even to the stars!' Then the angels replied, 'You are now in the spiritual world, and still you do not know that you are anywhere but the natural world. Here the heaven where the angels are is overhead, and hell where the devils and satans are is beneath your feet. Is not the ground on which you and we are standing earth! Stamp your foot on it and be convinced.' But because this was foreign to their preconceptions, they were very surprised. Still, because they were enlightened by the flames on their heads, they willingly listened to the angels' talk and understood the truths.