5630. After these things were said, I was conducted, along with certain Englishmen, to Italians who have been exceedingly crafty, and such inwardly, and who have burned with such crimes in their life. When I came to a distance [from them], I immediately perceived [in them] contempt for us who were coming and a great notion of themselves, as if they would possess heaven and earth. We approached nearer; and, then, I spoke with them. I asked, at first, something about the Lord: they said that they have all His power, inasmuch as it was given them through Peter. But I asked what they thought about God the Father; whether they have His power, also. They said that they have not, but only that of the Lord as regards the Human. We asked, in reply, how they understand this, that the Lord yet declares Himself to be one with the Father; that the Father is in Him and He in the Father; and that His Divine and Human is one like the soul and body, and, that because this is so, they cannot be divided; and [pointed out] that they do not so perceive the matter unless they say that they have Divine power, and also that of the Father Himself. At this, they, at first, held their peace, and consulted together: afterwards, they said that they have not heard such a thing before, and that they cannot reply to it until after they have consulted among themselves. They still wished to say something; but we answered that the speaking native to man is through the speech of ideas such as belongs to the wise in the other life, and not through a speech of terms; but, that, if they want to hunt up terms from the school-men and from Aristotle, this is ridiculous, and is never admitted by any intelligent man, because, in this way, the greatest falses may be confirmed. Then, after they consulted further, they sent to me a certain one who had been an Inquisitor among them; but, when he approached, he said that he is not of that religion but of another, and, moreover, that he did not dare [to say anything] there. Wherefore, they wished to resort to their arts and deceits, and said that they would reply in another way. But I said that this avails nothing, because we speak from Divine Truth; and that they know that he who attacks Divine Truth assails the Divine itself: also, that nobody ventured anything against Divine Truth in the other life.