3238. (For some time, there was again conversation between them and the angels of the Lord, and it was said to them, in rapid moments, through ideas not understood by me, that they know and do not know what is [evil]; also, that there are indefinite things which they do not know, indefinites in every idea, and that they cannot know even generals to eternity. This also was shown them, even to acknowledgement [so as to be recognized]; furthermore, the angels spoke with them such things as they did [could] not perceive, save by changes of state; which things, they said they do not understand, but perceive by means of changes of state. It was then said to them that every change [the least], now [occurring], contains indefinites. At length, when they perceived this, they humbled themselves; their humiliation was represented to me by the letting down of their volume more and more, towards deeper [regions]; and that still the elevation could not be concealed, on account of the volume being hollowed, and elevated at the sides; thus also by means of a sort of reciprocal slight motion [motitationem]. It was also told them what it signifies, or what they think in their humiliation; thus they are halved; a half part of the volume [is] above my head; they are removed [relegabantur] towards their planet, upwards at the back. The other half remaining in humiliation; which was a proof [sign] that they who are such as could not humble themselves, were sent back home, that they might lean there).